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This transcript appears in the September 4, 2015 issue of Executive Intelligence Review.

Platonic Dialogue in Manhattan
on Saturday, August 29, 2015

[PDF version of this article]

Dennis Speed: My name is Dennis Speed and on behalf of the LaRouche Political Action Committee I want to welcome everybody to today's continued dialogue with Lyndon LaRouche. I want to begin today by quoting Jonathan Swift, who said, "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." That principle of the confederacy is the one that Alexander Hamilton successfully eliminated, in the Presidency that he created together with George Washington, here in this city.

And so, as everybody knows who's been coming to these meetings, and everybody will find out who has not, the issue of the Presidency and the removal of Barack Obama is a function of what we here do, and we here do in Manhattan. So without further comments, I'm going to ask Lyn if you have anything you want to say before we start right in with the questions?

LaRouche's Opening Statement

I think that what's important here, is the fact that during the recent weeks that we've been assembled here, we have reached into an area which is absolutely awesome. It's not just what we're doing, it's what the situation is: We're now coming to the countdown which is going to determine whether or not we are able to save humanity from a serious threat of conflict; or whether we're going to go down with it. And I think we should devote ourselves to the relevance of things that may bear on getting out of this mess, rather than waiting for it to envelop us. And I think that's where we are right now.

Q: Before I speak, I want to draw everyone's attention to the information that we got today. Mr. LaRouche has a statement within that information that everybody should take a look at, and memorize—no, you don't have to memorize it. [laughter] OK, but it's here, it's in our packet: It says, "Wall Street Is Hopelessly Bankrupt, Institute Glass-Steagall Worldwide Immediately." This is Mr. LaRouche's statement.

And what I wanted to say—good afternoon, Mr. LaRouche, how are you?

LaRouche: Not too bad.

Q: [follow-up] You look great! OK! Mr. LaRouche, you have issued a statement calling for worldwide Glass-Steagall. Now, next week, there will be a major meeting of the United Nations General Assembly in New York City. It is said that President Putin of Russia and Xi Jinping of China will be in attendance at these proceedings; and these nations, China and Russia, among others, are acutely aware of the war danger. But you have emphasized that the war danger is being driven by the financial crisis, and the only solution, in addition to the immediate impeachment of Obama, is Glass-Steagall, in the United States and worldwide.

Now, as a Manhattan Project person, and many people here are part of that Manhattan Project, I would like your suggestions on how we are to make it known that this important meeting is taking place; in the past, we have been to the missions that are associated with the countries that are in the General Assembly. We have given information to them and spoken to people in high rank at the missions of these countries, that are located in Manhattan.

But in addition to that, or maybe you wanted to talk a little more about that, but what would be your suggestions for us, to make this meeting known?
Lyndon LaRouche in video-discussion with the Manhattan Project on August 29, 2015.
What Kind of Evil Would Do This?

LaRouche: I would say, first of all, this is an auspicious coincidence, shall we say, that what the issue is now, is the manner of how we are going to throw a President out of office. Because this President, if he were to remain in office, and he's demonstrated his directions in that connection, would be a threat to the continued existence of not only the people of the United States, but also the people of the planet.

This is something particularly evil. We see reflections of that in terms of what we see in the mass deaths in Europe. We have these whole areas where people come out of the swamps or the deserts of the area; and they struggle to escape from northern Africa, these areas of northern Africa and so forth. And they are murdered in large numbers, by drowning or other measures now.

So the point now, is that we have to think about, what is the kind of evil which would do these things? And one of them is Obama. And Obama is not just something unto himself. He's a figure—his father, or his nominal father was a very evil person, and this guy is also a very evil person. But you don't just go around killing evil persons. What you have to do, is you have to unleash, from mankind itself, the ability to recognize what they have to do, to free themselves from this; what actions they should take, what dedication they should have, what positive intentions they have, to bring this about.

And I would say, right now, and it's not an exaggeration in any sense; I'm being a somewhat old man, as they say, in the trades these days, I've lived a long life; I probably will a little more, if I shut my mouth, I guess, and avoid these dangers. [laughter] But the point is, that we in this area represent a part of the United States of Alexander Hamilton. And the Hamilton tradition, based in Manhattan, essentially; he was also in other parts of the place, but that was he. Because he is the one who has inspired,—despite all the evil that has gone on inside the United States in its history,—he is the one person whose mind reminds us of what our mission is: A dedication to bring about the good, in order to get rid of the devil. And that's what I think we are.

And I think that this location, this, in Manhattan, is important because there's something left of Alexander Hamilton, which is still alive inside this area, not just down in the place in the bottom of the area. But this is great. And we think, what the teaching profession has been in Manhattan, and what the best teachers have been; they weren't always given the best shot at doing the job, but they represent a body of people who represent one of the highest standards of education of young people, despite the rundown of the education system so far. We used to have a better education system, But! we have teachers who are dedicated to that intention, and that makes this place special!

Q: I'm K__ from the Bronx. George Washington had said, trade with other nations, but do not get involved in their politics. And at the time they were forming the UN, someone said it will give people an opportunity to come together to fight, or maybe he said "quarrel," but to show their displeasures with each other.

Our elite, parasitical class has been bringing us together in a one-world situation, so that we can all think the same thing; and I don't know if they ever intended for us to get along, but that was supposedly the idea.

Shortly before I left the house this morning, I found something on there that was of great interest to me: There is a nationalist sentiment spreading around the world, and I wonder if you could comment on it.

When Hillary Clinton Caved

But before you do, I understand that Hungary is building a 110-mile, 13-foot high wall around there, a fence or a wall; and I understand Bulgaria is building a 50-foot steel fence around them, and that this is something that's going to take place in many more places, that it's going to spread around. This country has shown an interest in also eliminating the people coming in from the border; it isn't that we don't welcome people in this country, it's that we feel that it's overwhelming us. Can you comment on the nationalist sentiment that is starting to build?

LaRouche: I certainly can. And with fulsome feelings and knowledge of the matter. This is a product largely of the administration of Obama, President Obama. What happened, is when Obama caused the murder of four representatives of the United States in that territory [Libya], Obama lied, and said the thing had to do with some crazy mystic from that part of the world. He lied!

Obama’s Murders: The burning of the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya on September 11. 2012.

But a certain woman who was involved with this process flinched! She knew he was lying. She knew that he was guilty of the assassination of these representatives of the Presidency of the United States. That was Hillary Clinton. She knew that. She was working under Obama at that time. And four of these people, officials of the United States, were killed, under the order of Obama. And Hillary Clinton balked; she was still a member of the staff of Obama and she flinched and balked, and caved in to Obama.

And she's living through a very terrible life right now, psychologically, because she knows all this. Her husband, Bill Clinton, is stymied by the horror of what her position represents now, because this is becoming more and more acute; because Obama's Satanic qualities are becoming increasingly manifest. We have a Congress which in general will not move on this issue. We have more and more people prepared to support Obama in launching a war which could cause, as a result, could cause the extermination of the human species.

And so we're in a time like that, where we have to do something about it. How do we do that? Well, the first thing is not that we have muscles or power of that sort. The point is our willpower, or creative impulses, truly creative impulses. That we have to understand the situation, recognize it, and create a movement inside our own society to make sure that Obama is told, under the 25th Amendment, to get the hell out of here. That's our best shot.

Q: I went through that period, I'm sure you did, because our ages are close to the same, where we had that crash in 1933. My family and I had come through the transition of gas lights and kerosene lanterns for illumination; thanks be to God, to Thomas Edison who brought us out of that darkness.

I want to state that I've been troubled by many things that have gone on in the world today, particularly the antics of Wall Street. We definitely need to combat that group of individuals who are seeking nothing but money for themselves at the expense of the United States of America. Surely, you're aware of that.

LaRouche: Yeah! Well, I don't know how my age compares with you, but I think we had some similar experiences in some past years ago.

It's understandable. What you're saying is understandable to me, totally. We went through the effects of the 1920s. We went through the effects of the 1930s, which were much better under Franklin Roosevelt. And things got pretty bad after Franklin Roosevelt died, because the wrong people got into power. And that stuff.... We had a couple of Kennedys, and they were pretty good people. We had also two leading commanders in military affairs, like MacArthur and others during the war period and afterward.

But we also had some very bad people brought into the power over the United States' policy during those years. We had Presidents who were very good, and we had Presidents who were very bad. And now we're at a point where I will say, after, shall we say, the 1980s and the beginning of the 1990s, apart from Bill Clinton—apart from Bill Clinton!—everything was going to Hell since that time.

We Kept Going Down and Down

And we have to stop that now. We have to realize that some of us, especially older people, who still remember a little bit about the history of the United States in the Twentieth Century, have the means of the insight to realize what the nature of the thing is we have to deal with. We, as old people, like me, we have to do our part in ensuring that the coming generations make it, and we don't go into a thermonuclear war which threatens the existence of the human species, which is what Obama threatens. Obama's operation is a threat to the existence of the human species. And let's hope that enough people in this world understand that we have to stop that. Pull him out, 25th Amendment. Throw him out. That's it.

Q: [follow-up] Unfortunately, we lost a tremendous asset that was Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who saved our bacon and put us back on the road to recovery. I can recall that vividly, where he instituted several organizations like CCC camps, where some of my relatives were able to get suitable employment, so they could survive, and my family could survive. And I classify him as one of our greatest Presidents. I'll never forget him.

I could talk on more. You're aware of what I am saying and God bless you, sir. Continue in your endeavor. I've been following you for a good number of years. I have found no fault in you whatsoever. Continue in your courageous work. God bless you, sir.

LaRouche: Thank you.

Q: Hi, Lyn, it's A__ from New York. I wanted to ask you or bring to your attention and get some feedback from you on what appears to be now in the population, but in amongst the leadership as well, the desire to sidestep, try and dance away, divert the subject from both Glass-Steagall and the threat of nuclear war. When you talk to people, they'll say "Well, yeah, we know about Iran." That kind of thing, as if that is the type of silly issue that is threatening them.

You know that they're not important, but this is typified by organizations like and so on. I understand that demonstrations are being organized against Schumer; so this type of silliness is happening on various levels. I think those of us here don't have a problem dealing with people face to face and head on, and presenting what is real and what they need to pay attention to. But with these types of dangerous silliness going on, I was wondering what you could speak more about that, and perhaps there's an even more direct way that we should handle this.

LaRouche: I think there's a deeper one that has to be considered. Some things are things that were buried under the ground, so to speak, over more than a century, in the Twentieth Century, for example. And what happened then, you had President Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt as President; this was actually a bonanza, in particular, for the United States. But then he died, and the day—and there's this picture which I know of, sort of, directly, that the President, Franklin Roosevelt, was in the last moments of his life, and two friends of mine, one a prominent official, military, and another official, who I later came to work with closely in the later part of my own career; that we lost what Franklin Roosevelt represented,—it was taken away from us.

Yes, we had war heroes, we had important people, important figures, who after Roosevelt's death, and also for Presidents of that period, they benefitted. But gradually it got worse and worse; we kept going down and down and down; we got worse and worse. We became more stupid, more blocked, more intimidated. We quit. We stopped fighting, as we should fight. We should fight for principle—it's fight for war, it's fight for principle—to ensure that the nation and its people will have access to a program of action for the development of the human species, for our nation; and that has been down.

And as a matter of fact, this is not something new. This is old. With the beginning of the Twentieth Century, the United States came under subjugation of Bertrand Russell, a purely evil man, one of the most evil men in all history, since that time. And at the same time, we used to actually practice science. The greatest scientists we had in the United States and in Europe, for example, were great scientists. And their work was tremendous. But what happened is, because of the influence of Russell, Bertrand Russell, the most evil man of the century, at that time, Russell's influence corrupted and almost destroyed science. We are now teaching mathematics, not physical science.

Obama the Greatest Threat to Humanity

And what happened is, in the course of this process, up to the Twentieth Century, we got to a problem where most of the scientists of the Twentieth Century have rejected science. They use mathematics, not science. Einstein, Albert Einstein, was one of the exceptional people, who in his own lifetime, maintained the principle of science.

We have in various parts of the world people who are truly scientists, but we have fewer and fewer of them. Our education system is being corrupted. We no longer have any connection of any significance. Our children, our generations of children, are becoming more and more ignorant, more and more like savages, lacking morality, lacking a meaning of life.

And therefore, the thing we have to do, we have to understand, like old men like me, we have to understand that we have a responsibility to turn the tide and to bring science, true science, rather than cheapo tricks, in order to bring mankind back to the course of action which the United States had followed, in the best years of our life, as in the United States. And that's where we are.

So, now on this occasion, here we are. Obama is the greatest threat to humanity on the planet. Not because he's acting against foreigners, but because he is the evil person, he is the evil force. He is the thing that has to be kicked out by the 25th Amendment, and kicked out of office right now. Because Obama is determined, now, to launch a thermonuclear war across the trans-Atlantic region. And if that war occurs, you'll have the kind of warfare which Obama intends to bring about, now, and that would cause a general extermination of the human species. In other words, the general assumption is, that if Obama and the British, who created him, if they were able to do this, and they are able to do it, then there would be very few people left on this planet. And this could happen in one day!

And that's where we are, and therefore we do have a real mission; we have a mission to get people to arouse themselves and to realize that this is the circumstance. And if the human will, the will of our citizens, could muster a significant part of itself to face the truth of this matter, I guarantee you, that many people, as in New York City, would say, "No! No! it's not going to happen." And we need Obama thrown out of office, thrown back where he belongs, with the 25th Amendment. [applause]

Q: Good afternoon, Mr. LaRouche, are you hearing me? My question is, gun violence in the United States is out of control. How can we stop the gun violence here? How can we solve this problem?

Obama's Mass Murders

LaRouche: Fine. Well, the problem here is, this is being promoted. You have to look at the other side of this thing, take a foreign case; in order to look at what's going on in the United States, sometimes you have to look to foreign nations, because you have look there to see if there's something going on in foreign nations, which gives you a key to what the problem is inside the United States. In other words, you want to have an objective view, not just an impression.

Obama&srquo;s Murders: The recovery of bodies of refugees drowned in the Mediterranean Sea off the coast of Libya.

Now, the fact of the matter is, the greatest horror that's going on right now, is that Obama set into motion, under his operations in various parts of the foreign areas, mass killing. And therefore what he's done, and he's brought this into the United States, he's really been an assassin. He's also destroyed our economy. He played a very specific role in all that.

Now the solution for us, the peaceful solution for dealing with Obama, who is the chief threat to the existence of the people of the United States, along with other peoples: Take the 25th Amendment of the United States. As a law, that law provides for Obama being removed from the Presidency on a short notice, and taking him out permanently from any authority in the United States, and elsewhere.

What Obama is doing: in Africa, he has orchestrated a system of assassination in various African nations, North Africa, other adjacent areas, and this is resulting in mass deaths in these areas. Obama's operation terrifies people in Northern Africa and other locations, in the Middle East. Now what happened, the people become terrified because of what's going on from Obama. Obama's pressure then pushes people from North Africa and adjacent areas, and pushes them into a mass drive to get across the sea there, in order to escape Northern Africa.

When they go onto the sea, somebody's out there ready to kill them, by sinking boats which are overloaded. They land inside Europe. What happens there? They become murdered! They are looking for a place to live, safe from those forces which Obama has set forth into Northern Africa. They get there, and they find they're being received by people in Europe, who want to kill them. Not that everybody does it, but there is a very significant amount of killing of people who are dumped onto the sea waters; they're drowned because of accidents, forced accidents; they were starved; but they kept coming and coming, because they were trying to escape the terror which Obama's operation in Northern Africa has created!

Obama’s Murders: Mass beheadings of Egyptian Christians being carried out by Islamic State terrorists on the beach in Libya.

So this is not a practical problem in the ordinary sense. This is a criminal action beyond belief. And it is Barack Obama, the President of the United States, who is responsible for the biggest part of this problem. And that's what the real problem is.

Well, what happens in the United States in terms of poor employment, and all these things? That's all there. But you want to see the heart of it, look at what's going on there in Europe, the people who are being mass killed in Europe; driven from Africa, and they drown in the sea. If they landed in Europe, somebody was waiting to mass kill them, 70, 80 people at a time; suddenly they're found dead, among these people who are trying to emigrate to safety in Europe. This is the situation.

So what you're talking about, yes, is a valid concern. But it doesn't come close to what Obama is causing to occur in Europe, and around Europe, and inside the United States itself. We have a good cause, and we have to muster ourselves to make sure that cause is successful. [applause]

Q: Mr. LaRouche, my name is D—. The 25th Amendment is to be activated by the cabinet of the United States. Which members, of those would be able to—John Kerry would be one, right? Or no? Who would be the principals of the cabinet who would make this decision?

Use the 25th Amendment

LaRouche: You had the first precedent with the 25th Amendment. The 25th Amendment resulted in the bouncing out of a President. And the precedent of this action became the 25th Amendment; which means that if there are abuses by an incumbent President of the United States, and he engages in lawless proceedings, then he can be suspended by a proceeding in the body of the United States' ruling forces; as compared to the usual idea of impeaching a President who violates the principles of our nation. And Obama should be thrown out of office immediately, because he has violated the provisions specified under the terms of the 25th Amendment. And that would be a blessing, and not in disguise.

Q: [follow-up] It would be!

Q: Good afternoon, sir. Thank you for everything you do to stop oppression in the world. I am M__ from Mali, my home country. I was born Muslim, and I converted to Christianity. But I have been persecuted for that. That's why I'm here and became a citizen. Now ISIS is killing Christians in Middle East, and forcing Christians to convert to Islam. Do you think something is possible to stop that terror? And what should the Obama Administration do about violence against Christians in the world?

LaRouche: OK, good. Well, first of all, we have the problem right now, Obama. Obama is the number-one problem, because the President of the United States,—if Obama were not the President, shall we say, then that represents the agency for which we can get justice from the kind of problem you are talking about.

Now, also other nations—Europe has got a very poor record right now, in general. Germany has not lived up to its moral standards on this, though many German officials have stood for good causes. But there are some ruling forces there who don't want that to happen. We find, for example, the British system; well, the British system is a horrible, evil system. But we have now a new campaign coming up where a new election may occur in the United Kingdom, and they might get rid of this nonsense. So this time, there are various kinds of things which could be successful good things to be done, to deal with these problems.

The main thing is, if we, in the United States, dumped Obama, threw him out of office, under the conditions of the 25th Amendment, then we ourselves would be free.

See the problem here is this: Most Americans are cowards. It's not that they were built to be cowards, but they are intimidated. Now if, for example, you take the conditions of economic life in the United States, see what has happened to the standard of living of people in the United States who used to be skilled workers, for example; skilled employees, people with scientific capabilities, and so forth. We don't have many more of those any more. The majority of the labor force of the United States is almost crushed. We're losing everything. Our children are becoming insane, and corrupt. It's not necessary, but it was forecast.

So the point is, we do have causes which we in the United States, in concert with people from other nations, can move ahead, and get this thing put in the right direction. It doesn't mean an immediate, wonderful miracle, it means moving rapidly in the right direction. And therefore, those of us who are concerned about it just have to do that. Just do it, and we can do it. That is, it's possible for us to do it.

But the problem we have, is basically most Americans today are so intimidated, so poorly educated, so isolated from things that it used to be you could take for granted, and that's not taken for granted any more. And therefore, we have to mobilize what we have as forces in the United States and beyond. We have to make a change in direction. And the kind of thing you're worrying about are the kind of things that come under "change in direction." Without the change in direction, you can't make it. So let's do it. Let's make the change.

Q: Good afternoon, Mr. LaRouche. I'm P__ from Connecticut—I was going to say the "Dodd-Frank State." [laughter] Anyway.

I have two things: One's a question, and one is an idea. I think I'll give you the idea first: With the upcoming General Assembly, the United Nations is an excellent place for a rally. On Wednesday, I plan on bringing five, 3 by 5, full-size flags representing the BRICS nations, to add to our posters and signs. What do you think of this idea?

LaRouche: I think it's perfectly feasible. I don't know if it would be successful, but the idea of doing it, right now, it's feasible. It's something that should be done. I mean, you don't have to get the full answer; you don't have to get the full detail of how it's going to work out. It's a question of attitude. If you're pushing with the right attitude, you probably can come out with some success.

Children of Bush/Obama

Q: [follow-up] Hmm! Thank you.

The second thing was, can we focus on the prosecutors, to impeach Obama?

LaRouche: Yes! That's the 25th Amendment. And when you get enough members of the Congress, who realize that this bum has to be thrown out of office, quick, that'll do the job. That's what has to happen.

Q: [follow-up] Thank you very much.

Q: Good afternoon, Lyn, this is M__ from New York, and I think it's very, very important that you spoke about education, I think four speakers ago, and then the last couple of speakers you've touched on that as well. Now, obviously, 16-, 17-year-olds, at this point, young men, young women, it's essential for them to participate in their own survival, I think, to put it bluntly. And also, since we are adamant,—and we need to increase this adamancy,—that we will get to the next elections, in other words, the selection of new leadership for this country, hopefully in a drastically different direction, from the direction we've been going in.

My question is, how can we use, I think most significantly, Classical literature, Classical art, Classical music, Classical drama, to imbue these young men and young women with the conceptions both to participate in their own survival; in the process of saving the country, and then, in exercising the leadership that is necessary to progress the United States of America? Thank you, Lyn.

LaRouche: Well, the problem is,—it's a really serious problem here—that we've had two Presidencies, which are actually four Presidencies, of Bush who was re-elected; and of Obama who was re-elected, in the process of completing his second term. All right, now during this period, think about what that means: Who were the children who were born at the time of young Bush's or Obama's Presidency? What has happened in eight years? What has happened to children in eight years, from very young age to adolescence? What are these children fit for? How many of them are fit at all? Under the reign of Bush and Obama?

In other words, therefore, what you have is you have a cowardly citizenry. Why are they cowardly? Because they're afraid of their own children! Their own children are various kinds of drunks; they have no orientation to anything that's meaningful in life. And parents of these children are stunned; what can they do, to have created these children? What're we going to do with these children?

And so, therefore we need a very active approach to this matter, and obviously, the thing is culture; culture, as such. Take them aside, convince them that some of the things they were thinking about were kind of kooky, and wrong! And dangerous. Or, the other one is to say, "Where the hell do you think your life is going, the way you're going?" And some young people will respond to that. They'll regret the fact that they were drunks and all kinds of drug addicts; and the sex life, we don't which sex there is in the human species any more. The thing is so damned confused, we don't know who's voting for what, and who's breeding with whom, or what.

So the problem is, we really have to realize, we have to have a revolution in the sense of morals, in the sense of Classical artistic composition, in terms of scientific development; in terms of educating people to think in terms of what their brains can do! And what do they run on? Drugs! Drugs and drug-like access; what comes out of that? They become unfit to live. And why does this happen? Because it's encouraged.

How many people are actually employed among the youth, in the United States today? How many are not? How many may be employed a little bit, but not very much; their skills? Almost nil! Scientific training? Almost nothing! So how do we expect the civilization to function in this way? It means, we face at the best, we're threatened by an emergency, a cultural emergency.

I believe the problem can be solved; but I don't believe it can happen automatically. It has to be solved. And we have to take the best we have in terms of the cultural achievement of our body of citizens, and encourage that, to spread it, and hope that the infection will do the job.

Q: [follow-up] Thank you very much, Lyn. [applause]

Mathematics Versus Science

Q: Hello, Mr. LaRouche. My name is G__ from here in Manhattan. I have taught mathematics for over 50 years. When I was here last week, I reacted very strongly, when you seemed to attack mathematics. I understand that mathematics is not a science, but a tool for science to use. Nevertheless, don't you think that the teaching of math has a place in the basic curriculum? Thank you very much.

LaRouche: No, not really. What it does have, it has an experience which a child can get, a young child can get, or adolescent. And they can reach a certain kind of discipline. But the minute you get them into the process of competent discipline, which is the so-called mathematics routine, it doesn't really work for science. Therefore, you have to understand the difference between mathematics and science; and science is based on the discovery of new principles, or the equivalent of new principles which overthrow—for example, my education is based on Bernhard Riemann. I'm a Riemannian product; and Riemann was not a mathematician: He said Don't do this! it's a mistake! And I say: Don't do it, it's a mistake!

But even to acquaint the young students, to acquaint them with what mathematics is, then you have to take the next step; say, "now we told you about mathematics. Now we'll tell you what's wrong about it." And Bernhard Riemann will make the point very clearly!

Q: [follow-up] Well, sir, I'm not sure I agree with all of that. but nevertheless, I thank you for your opinion.

Q: Hi, Mr. LaRouche. I'm R__ from Bergen County, New Jersey. My question involves recent events in the economics sphere. I want to quote, basically paraphrase you from the website. "LaRouche: The trans-Atlantic System Is Over, Replace It Now." And I thought there was a very succinct and to the point paragraph in there, which I'd like to read, quickly:

"LaRouche ridiculed the idea that the so-called 'Black Monday' stock market meltdown of Aug. 24 was the cause of the crisis; the crash was only a display of the fact that the markets are starting to catch up with the reality of the system's total bankruptcy. It is also wrong to blame China for the crisis. They have been put through the wringer, because of the global trade collapse which affects their economy significantly, but they are not the cause, LaRouche emphasized."

I really like that paragraph, because it very succinctly summarizes the concerns that I have in reading the common media. And you can see quite clearly in the media that the blame is trying to be put on China as the source of this crisis: "Oh, it's because of the Chinese. Why? Because the Chinese are having problems, and they're not buying stuff any more so the commodities countries are having severe problems, and they're going to have to go off their currency pegs and that's going to cause a meltdown. But the United States is fine. "

That seems to be the attitude in the media: There's nothing wrong with the United States; the United States is always good, always has been good, always will be good, and there's nothing conceivably wrong with the U.S. economy. That seems to be the attitude you get in the press.

Well, you can get a glimmer here and there, "well, maybe the growth isn't as good as it should be, or could be." So over the past week, I was thinking about economic growth; what causes economic growth. Nobody in the media seems to have an answer to that. You read the Wall Street Journal, you get platitudes of "It's caused by, well, we need technology in order to grow the economy," but they don't really go any further than that. And one writer actually says, "We need more deregulation." [LaRouche laughs] So the way to grow to the economy, to some people, is to deregulate everything, that'll somehow, by magic...

Now, in thinking about these issues, I was thinking about the idea of energy-flux density, which I know you pioneered that concept; and I came to the conclusion that you can't have serious economic growth without—as I understand it, you state it this way; you say, economic growth can be measured by the increase in the productive capacity of workers, and I think one could hook that up with increasing energy-flux density. Because if the technology platform is at a higher level, then for the same human effort you're going to get increased output.

So I see the concept of energy-flux density as crucial of the increase in energy-flux density of the kind that can only be attained through fusion power, as being essential to talking seriously about increasing the economic growth. Do you have any comments on that?

The Task of Mankind

LaRouche: Yes. I can actually make a clarification of what this whole thing of mathematics and science is. And what's the difference between mathematics and science. Mathematics is not science; it has a role which is in a life of science, but it is not science. In other words, for example, a student makes a calculation based on mathematics, and the student will find out in due course, that that doesn't work. Now, the fact that the student had studied the fact, and now finds out that it was wrong, that it doesn't work, then the student has to go to the next step, to science. Get out of mathematics and go into science.

Now, science is what? Science is the uniqueness which defines the distinction between human beings and animals. What does that mean? That means that mankind develops powers, creative powers in the universe, powers which become the foundations of what we should call science. In other words, mankind's mind is able to create. For example, let's take two cases: Kepler, Kepler who discovered the Solar System. Did he use mathematics? No. He was smart enough not to. He discovered a principle in the universe which no mathematician had ever known.

The same thing has happened recently in terms of the system of water. The human stock of water supply is located not only on Earth in the main; it's mainly in the Galaxy. That is, the sources of water used by mankind depend ultimately on the superior volume of that process, from the Galaxy.

So therefore, what happens is the history of mankind, including the biological discoveries of science, which are not mathematical, so therefore, you cannot rely on mathematics for anything except pedestrian purposes. For scientific purposes, mathematics is not relevant. And I think Kepler, for example, would understand that, and he demonstrated it. Einstein understood it; Einstein was the only man who understood science, adequately, during the Twentieth Century.

So the task of mankind is to make scientific progress, to enable mankind to create achievements in production, which no animal could ever have done! Sometimes animals and poorly educated people, can make discoveries; but they're not scientific discoveries. And therefore, the point is we have to make discoveries; we are going to have to deal with the Galaxy. Our water supply for mankind on Earth depends upon the Galactic process; we now have discovered some facts about that Galactic process in recent times, and it's that Galactic process, which will ultimately guarantee the ability of mankind to maintain human life on planet Earth.

So these are the conditions. You have to rely on actual science! Mathematics will not do it, it has to be science. Not mathematics. And therefore, yes, we can do things with mathematics, we can take existing technologies, use existing technologies in new ways. That's done, that's legitimate. But it's not enough. We need to make fundamental discoveries of universal principle. And that's what's required.

Q: Hello, Mr. LaRouche, H__ from the Bronx. I enjoy these conversations with you. I happen to be personally associated with people from South America, from Central America, from Guatemala, and there have been very bad things happening in Guatemala, due to an operation of Obama and Biden, where ironically they are running an impeachment against the President of Guatemala through an international UN judicial organization, which they forced on the government of Guatemala over the last 10 years.

And then, at the same time, we feel this hate in the U.S. as typified by Mr. Trump against immigrants, against Mexicans, against Guatemalans; it's reminiscent of the Nazi attitudes of the '30s, and I hope somehow we can use this experience to help impeach Obama. But you know, it is getting very dirty, and some of the people I speak to from Central America are actually in quite a bit of fear of this process that we're seeing. So I'd like your comments.

LaRouche: Yeah, we have some judges in the United States who are part of this problem of incentives against people of South America and Central America, and those forces inside the United States, who are judges, major judges, and they are part of the gang of a bunch of gangsters who are trying to rape South American nations and Central American nations. So there is a problem, and the problem must find justification.

Q: [follow-up] Yeah, also, if you'd like to comment, this thing about Trump. We thought it would go away, but apparently the cancer is not going away: we had this thing with Trump having a fit against this fellow George Ramos of the Univision organization. And I don't know if you have any special recipe or remedy for this, but it is something that is sort of burning at us.

The Japan Mess

LaRouche: Trump is a fraud. He really is nothing; he has no intellectual notability; he tends to steal a little bit, or a great bit. But he's not really worth talking about, except to say bad things about him. If you want to say bad things about Trump, do it all day! Enjoy yourself.

Q: Hi Lyn, this is D__ in New York: On the subject of creating an effective movement for the 25th Amendment to be implemented, I thought I would share a little bit of an experience I was able to have recently, where I was fortunate enough to visit Japan, for a short amount of time, and I was very inspired by many of the people I met there; I really enjoyed the country. But there's certainly a huge challenge in Japan, namely that the right-wingers in the government are in charge currently of the Prime Ministership in the form of Shinzo Abe, who, for people who aren't aware of this, has recently been in the process of forcing through a reinterpretation of the Peace Constitution that followed MacArthur's role in the occupation of Japan. And this is a Constitution that prevents Japan from being engaged in war, essentially.

So this is being changed right now. What I was happy to experience was, I was able to attend a rally of some people in Tokyo who stood outside of the Diet, and they were out there to defend the Peace Constitution from Abe. And I was happy to see, also, that in large part, they did not really talk about the critical issue being thermonuclear war and Obama's role, there was some discussion of that; and there was a serious understanding of what Abe represents, who many people don't realize is the grandson of a leading war criminal in fascist Japan, named Kishi. There were some people at this event who had pictures of Abe with a Hitler moustache, much like what you did to Obama.

But I was happy to see that what this movement has been creating over the past few months, and it's galvanizing a number of people who are simply average middle-class people, many of whom are boomer age, who in the 1960s and '70s were engaged in certain protest activities in Japan, and they're building now, for tomorrow, what they intend to be a million people across Japan to protest the reinterpretation of the Peace Constitution. And before I left, I saw one of the posters advertising this, and it had Obama's face behind Abe. So there's a growing understanding of Obama's role.

But it occurs to me,—it's just shocking how over years, people are trying to address the breakdown of this country in terms of this issue or that issue, when the only issue is the Presidency of the United States and Wall Street: Namely, getting rid of Obama, and putting through Glass-Steagall. So somehow in Japan, there's been over this period, amongst these people, many of whom are not political otherwise, but have become political, they have the humility to admit what has been done in their own country, even going back to World War II; because you know, Abe's one of these people who refuses to address the reality of the crimes committed.

So these people have had the humility to try to organize themselves to have the self-confidence to stand up. And my major question at this moment is: we're in a tragedy here in the United States, we're in a tragedy globally, so what is that principle? Is it humility? What is it that is the pathway to the self-confidence that Americans need to organize for the 25th Amendment?

LaRouche: Well, it's more complicated; it looks simple on the stage, but it's not really that clear. Look, guess where Abe came from on this operation? From the United States! This movement in Japan was provoked to attack China. And what was done was part of Obama's pressure to support Abe, and to bring a conflict between China and Japan into play. So we shouldn't look at things on the surface, when we know that—or should know or could know, what's going on.

White House/Pete Souza
Barack Obama confers with Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe before the APEC summit on Nov. 11, 2014.

People in Japan have gone through a lot of things, some of which I know about. I had a very close relationship in the later period, after MacArthur's operation, in terms of working with Japan. And I was working in that part of the world. I was organizing with a Japanese organization, which was a great organization, actually, and made great achievements. And the people who represented that organization were sort of dissipated from their changed conditions.

So the thing you have to do, don't assume that the people who are the active persons on the case, are the force at play. In this case, it is Obama who's responsible. You take the emergence of Abe in this new form, is a result of Obama! So, you want to solve the problem? Get Obama out!

The Standard of Einstein

Q: Good afternoon, Mr. LaRouche. This question is more intellectual than political, but: Do you think that the fact that Obama's mother was in the State Department, affected his attitude toward the British Crown?

LaRouche: It did, of course. You have to look at this, also, his stepfather, Obama's stepfather: he was the guy who was a real murderous guy. And obviously, the mother was not murderous; the mother was a little bit freaky, kooky, but she was not murderous as such. Obama got it from his stepfather, who was a real killer in that part of the world, and that's where the problem came from.

So Obama is evil. But his stepfather is the guy who trained him. And that's where the problem came from.

Q: This is E__ originally from the Bronx, and I have a statement and then a question. Statement: Albert Einstein had a formula that the energy of the universe is constant, so my question to you is, could you elaborate on your concept of negentropy in the universe?

LaRouche: It's the same thing. Of course, the universe is never silent, it's never fixed. In everything we know about it, it's never been fixed. As a matter of fact, the interesting thing about it, when you look at the experience of mankind in science, in developing science, is that mankind is always inherently capable of making discoveries, new discoveries, and when you're talking about science, you have to be talking about new discovery; new principles of discovery.

You cannot use a deductive approach to understand science. You know Albert Einstein himself was exemplary in the fact that that was his method. And all the other official scientists during the Twentieth Century, failed to meet the standard of Einstein, because they accepted mathematics, instead of science. And what happened is, was that at the beginning of the Twentieth Century there was a change in the intellectual life: In the Nineteenth Century, good science was based on discovery of new principles, not on mathematics.

Bertrand Russell at the beginning of the Twentieth Century, introduced in force the brainwashing of most of the scientists in the United States and other places; they were brainwashed, and they believed in mathematics, not physical science.

So therefore, the problem has been that those of us who were working on these kinds of issues, have to deal with that problem. Einstein was right, and those who disagreed with Einstein were wrong. Einstein was right, it is the people who turned against him who were wrong. And that's true today.

Any idea of science as science exists today in practice, not as taught by people; much of the education is wrong on this case. The basis for progress is what Einstein represented: creativity. Creating a new Solar System in the universe which had never existed before! So you cannot deduce science from mathematics. Because science deals with the things that were not created beforehand.

So the problem is the lack of the effort to provide people, including scientists, with a competent approach to understand what scientific method really means. And that's what we have to fight for: True scientific method, the discovery of universal principles in the Solar System and beyond, principles which had not been known before, but were called into creation at a later point. And the whole history of science all the way back, has already been the discovery of things that mankind had never understood before, as principles. And that's what we have to do.

Q: Good afternoon, Mr. LaRouche. My name is Mr. H__; I've lived since 1959 in Queens, almost, except for my military service time. Now, I have a lot of questions: Power of corporations,—they control our government. Indirectly they control all of us! I believe we live in a rich man's dictatorship, the corporation. How can you break them? They control the newspapers, they control our propaganda, they control our way of thinking. Can we come up with another Dr. Martin Luther King? Can we come up with another Mahatma Gandhi, and change our way of life? There is no more middle class. How much more can we stretch our dollar bill? Look, 11 million Americans lost their homes not long ago: nobody went to jail, but the rich got mortgages! How much more do they want?

- The Practical Man Can't Understand Science -

LaRouche: Well the problem is, [crosstalk] you have to look at the problem correctly. The point is that most of our society is ignorant, by its own standards: That is, it is not progressive, it is not scientific! That is, it does not make new discoveries of principle, which can be converted to produce results which mankind had never known before. And that's where the problem lies.

Hubble Heritage Team/NASA
The Sombrero Galaxy, as seen from the Hubble telescope on July 26, 2015.

Now, if you take a population and they believe that mathematics is science, then you have people who are not, really, good scientists, will never be good scientists under those conditions. And so therefore, the problem here is, again, the Einstein problem: Einstein was the only person present in his generation, who understood what science is. The only one! There were other people who had aspects of science, and they were serious; you have people who are still making discoveries which are actually scientific discoveries. But in general in the universities today, there is no understanding of science per se; there is an understanding of a mathematical interpretation of what is called science. That's the problem.

However, in the history of the earlier period, like before the Twentieth Century, yeah, there was very good frequent science, real science. Today we're trying to get it born again. And it can be done; it has to be done. And the work with Kepler,—for example, the people who have studied Kepler actually understood what Kepler did when he discovered the Solar System. And now we have what was discovered at a higher level, as the Galactic System: these are things that were unknown, beforehand. There were not sciences before then of this nature; these were things that had remained unknown. But it's going into the unknown, beyond the unknown, which is the nature of science.

And only mankind can do that. The practical man cannot understand science; only a scientist can understand science, because, why? Because they are making discoveries, and know how to prove new discoveries, as Einstein did. And Einstein was the only person in that century, who really had a legitimate claim to being a scientist; because he was a discoverer.

Q: [follow-up] So, our school system, how are we going to bring it up? How can we compete against the Chinese, against the Europeans? We are being left behind! How can we compete against the world, because I feel we are being left behind compared to the Europeans, even the Chinese; our school system is not the way it has been in the past.

LaRouche: That's true: Your complaint on that account is absolutely correct. However, there are some people who are trying to teach, and who are doing a competent job at what they're trying to teach.

Q: [follow-up] Our children will not have the same—my grandchildren will not have the same opportunity any more...

LaRouche: I know that. But I wouldn't quarrel with you about that at all. I know what's happened to education; I know how few educators there are still around, who really have a clear head and know how to use it. That's true.

But the problem is, the culture of the United States, since Franklin Roosevelt died, has generally gone in a direction of down! What your complaint is, should be addressed to what destroyed what had been achieved by Franklin Roosevelt. What he represented, and other scientists at the same time, in the same period. Yes! The United States was a great power, and Franklin Roosevelt epitomized the principle of that great power of the United States. Other people who served after him, like some great warriors we had, were not poor at all; we had some great scientists also during that period.

But what happened is the process, like the various clowns, like the FBI and so forth, these clowns did everything possible; if you know what I know, directly, from my age, coming back from military service back into the United States, and what I saw when I got back into the United States and walked back home into the United States; when I began finding out quickly, in a very short time, how evil and corrupt the United States had become.

What is True Immortality?

And I reflected on that, because I had a close relationship with people tied to our President, and what happened was, that they were just almost destroyed; it was crushed. You have to understand—I don't know quite how old you are—but I can tell you what I know, what was done to the people of the United States under the new Presidency after Roosevelt,—it was ugly and evil. And a lot of that is—I mean, the killing of Kennedy, and the killing of his brother! It was murder! And I know some of the people who did the murder. What was wrong: I was very closely associated with Ronald Reagan. I served him in a special case, a special operation, and I know what they did to him: they shot him! It was a part of the Bush family.

He survived that. And I got the next treatment, next. They didn't actually try to shoot me, but they tried everything else. And so, the Bush family, you tell me about Bush? You tell me about Obama? I can tell you, these things are things that should not have existed, ever.

Q: [follow-up] OK, thank you. Thank you.

Q: [Lynne Speed] Hi Lyn. So I have a question for you about the issue of immortality. And I've been thinking quite a bit about this, this week, because of course, we lost a very, very dear old friend: Amelia Boynton Robinson. She passed away this past Tuesday, after a very, very long, very, very fruitful and productive life; we're not sure whether she was 104 or 110, since I have a copy of her driver's license and passport that says she was born on Aug. 18, 1905.

But at any rate, as you well know, and as many of our people in our Manhattan Project know, she worked since she was a very little girl, starting in the nineteen-teens, registering with her mother people to vote; and she continued right through bringing Martin Luther King into Selma, Alabama into the whole voting rights fight, and so on. And then, even after all of that, at the ripe old age, of who knows? 70, then, she joined with you and with Helga and served as the Vice-Chairwoman of the Schiller Institute for 25 years, bringing her message for the uplifting of humanity to the entire world. So it is a great loss.

But you have spoken many times, recently, about this question of immortality: that one's life is not simply the measure of what we do it in, great as the things that we might accomplish are, but what we leave for future posterity. And I would like you to comment on this, at this point in terms of this question of immortality.

LaRouche: Immortality, I would say, is expressed by true scientific creativity. Mathematics is not creative, intrinsically. Mathematics is useful, but it depends upon the prediscovery of an advanced principle, and then once you have discovered the advanced principle, then that principle becomes an addition which you may call mathematical. But the reason it's called mathematical, is because science has changed mathematics. And it's taken and brought mathematics to a higher level of science.

Without this progress of science, going beyond mathematics, going into science as such, making discoveries which are actually scientific discoveries, what's that mean?

And we are each born, and we die. What's the meaning of all that? The meaning is, yes, we're all going to die. We'll die eventually anyway; we're not immortal. But mankind is immortal. Because mankind, by the progress of mankind in making the effect of scientific progress, scientific discovery, not mathematical, scientific discoveries, these things are the secret of mankind's access to immortality as a species. And that's what's important.

Yeah, we're all going to die. Even me, I'm going to die, eventually. I don't know how long I can stick this thing out, but I'm very active at it right now, still. So the issue is, the purpose of mankind is not only to live, but to produce something new for all mankind in one degree or another. And that's what makes the meaning of our existence, immortal. We cannot be immortal; the meaning of our existence by creative forces exercised by us, is immortal. And the thing you want to do with life, is you want to become immortal; that doesn't mean you're going to live forever. It means that you're going to be something which cannot be forgotten. [applause]

Mankind Must Take Charge

SPEED: We've come to the end, again, and there's something in particular I think we can do. As you know, Lyn, we had a rally this Wednesday at Wall Street. We're going to go back this week. When we sign off from you, we're going to be teaching some people one of our Wall Street songs in anticipation of that.

But I'd like to point something out which is well-known to you, but may not be so well-known to people here: You know, there've been a lot of people we've been associated with. There were people like Hulan Jack, the Borough President of Manhattan, and he suffered tremendously. There was Fred Wills, and he was the former Foreign Minister of Guyana and Justice Minister, and he suffered tremendously. And there was of course, Amelia. There was Wade Watts, your friend Wade Watts, who was the head of the Oklahoma NAACP, and had converted the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan to Christianity [laughter], and you know, Wade suffered all the time! Of course, he was a gambler before he became a preacher, and did many things.

You have attracted a rogues' gallery of heroic people, over the years. And of course, the whole purpose I see of the Manhattan Project, is, we are in the practice of producing such rogues, if you want to put it that way: In other words, real Americans. Real people who really know how to fight. You've talked about this idea: Wall Street goes now, and we're going to be taking that up, as soon as this signs off.

So I'd like you, if you want to, tell us how you'd like us to proceed with that in the coming week.

LaRouche: [laughs] Well, we have a couple of miracles to make first of all: We have to push urgently, we have to push through getting rid of Obama. Get him out of office. Because if we don't get him out of office, he is already committed to launch a thermonuclear war. That's what he's working for. He's been shifting everything in his administration to clear the way for launching a thermonuclear war. And a thermonuclear war, if you want to understand what it is, means that practically nobody survives. Not under a thermonuclear war. The best plan they've got there, is maybe 1 million people will survive. That's what the issue is.

And therefore, mankind has to take charge and get the Obama syndrome out of office. And in one way or the other, the 25th Amendment to the Constitution is the instrument that should be allowed, to get Obama out of office. That would prevent World War III. And it's a pretty good idea! [applause]

SPEED: So that concludes our dialogue with Lyn for this week, and we will, of course, see you next week, Lyn!

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