INTERVIEW: Sonja van den Ende

The Truth About Ukraine

The following is an edited transcript of the Dec. 3, 2025 interview with Sonja van den Ende. Ms. Van den Ende is an independent journalist and geopolitical analyst from the Netherlands, currently residing in Russia, who has been sanctioned and effectively exiled by her home country for truthful reporting on the war in Ukraine. She is one of several Western journalists placed on Ukraine’s infamous Myrotvorets “kill list,” making her a target for assassination. The interview was conducted by Diane Sare for The LaRouche Organization’s Friday Symposium. Subheads have been added. The video is available here.

Diane Sare: Good morning. I am Diane Sare, doing an interview for The LaRouche Organization. And with us today is independent journalist Sonja van den Ende, who is currently in Russia. She is a geopolitical analyst who writes for various publications, no longer in the West, I’m afraid, generally because of their lack of commitment to telling the truth about anything going on. And I came to know Sonja on a few calls of the Schiller Institute, but particularly we have had the honor—I’ll call it that—to be named in the same Ukrainian hit lists for spreading “disinformation” and Russian propaganda, because it has been the case that anyone who said that Ukraine was not going to win the war and could not win the war, and that NATO provoked this whole operation by its aggressive actions, was labeled as a [Russian President Vladimir] Putin sympathizer, a Russian propagandist. Now, I think some of that facade is falling by the wayside. It’s sort of undeniable that Russia is not going to lose the war with Ukraine. And I think I’ll just leave it at that and ask you, Sonja, please, to introduce yourself to people watching and take it from there. Please go ahead.

Sonja van den Ende: Thank you. Well, first of all, thanks for inviting me to this interview. My name is Sonja, I’m a Dutch journalist and a geopolitical commentator. I worked for several media in the West, in the Netherlands and Belgium. Also, just to mention, I was a member of the Dutch Socialist Party until 2015, when I was kicked out, because then the whole thing started with Syria, and it was not very appreciated when I came back from my travels there, and I told them what I saw. And this was, of course, not the policy of the West, or of my country, the Netherlands. So then, in 2022, the Special Military Operation [of Russia in Ukraine] started, and I was invited to a conference in Moscow. So, I went for what was supposed to be two weeks. And while I was there, the airspace was closed because of the sanctions. So they told me, please stay. There’s an opportunity for you to go to the Donbas to see for yourself what is going on. So, I said, okay, I’m waiting, so I will do that.

So, I ended up actually going 10 or 12 times after that and reported from cities like Mariupol, Volnovakha, Melitopol, Kherson and many other cities. And while I was there in May 2022, I was put on the Myrotvorets list like you are, and we all are, when we are speaking positively about Russia or visiting the Donbas. So, then I came back and they told me, well, it’s better if you stay here, because it’s not only that you’ve been put on that list, it’s also MI5 and MI6 in Britain, and your own country, the Netherlands, might do something against you. So, already my bank account was closed and this kind of thing. My property—thank God I was able to sell it—but they would confiscate it. So, I ended up in Russia, and actually it’s very good. I’m here already for three years, and I am used to the situation here, and that’s okay. So, that’s a little bit of my story as to how I ended up, and what I’m doing now, in Russia.

Sare: Wow! Well, it seems like we could discuss the lack of true, serious journalism in the West, which is really a problem. You know, I ran for the U.S. Senate twice. It would be easy to say, the American people are just dumb or they don’t care. It’s not really that. And I think it’s similar in Western Europe, although I think in Western Europe there’s more of a social safety net. People are struggling. They have two or three jobs, they can’t afford groceries, can’t afford to buy a new car. They’re getting foreclosed upon, and they don’t have time to dig and do research to try and figure out what’s going on. And I had even very intelligent people in my family, who are mostly medical doctors—I’m the black sheep here—asking me, “What is happening in Ukraine? Why is Putin invading?” This kind of thing.

I think that was a big miscalculation by NATO, by the way, that they thought they could win the war in the information sphere, but they weren’t prepared for a kinetic war. And I would like some comments on that. And then I would like you to please tell people what it was that you saw when you went to the Donbas, because clearly this is your own account. This is not from someone telling you what to say. And I think people would be interested to hear that.

Europe Does Not Want Peace

Van den Ende: Well, first of all, in the Western countries, the Netherlands, Germany, and so on, the war propaganda is very terrible, and it started straight away in 2022. But nowadays it’s amazing, it’s terrible. Many friends deserted me; my own family thinks I’m now working for the Russians, and that that’s the enemy. So this is going on, and I think the propaganda is much worse in Europe even than in the United States, since they’re really preparing for war in Europe. And we all know, now under the [U.S. President Donald] Trump administration that there’s a sort of peace negotiations, let’s put it this way. I don’t think it’s really successful, because, in my opinion, a peace negotiation should be done between two parties, such as Ukraine and Russia, and the United States and Europe can be at the table as well, just to negotiate. But this is not what is happening. It’s one-sided, because Ukraine and Europe do not want to have peace. This has been clear for a long time already.

Sare: If I may, part of the problem is that we have this gigantic financial bubble of derivatives, and the arms sales are really part of it. And it struck me very intensely last night, as I did an interview with [American radio host and blogger] Garland Nixon about why we should get rid of NATO. And I was thinking, they’re committing to all these weapons that won’t even be produced for three years or for five years. And then I realized, knowing how the markets work, they’re not only selling weapons, they’re selling derivatives on the weapons, on the future sales of weapons. And therefore, everything they are doing depends on this war continuing. And then you have things like the French Chief of the Defense Staff [General Fabien Mandon], who said, “Well, French people have to develop the soul to be willing to send their children to die in war.” I mean, really crazy! So, I think you’re right. I think the propaganda in Europe is much more intense than in the United States.

Van den Ende: Yes, exactly. And as for my country, the Netherlands, we had Mark Rutte, who was Prime Minister of the Netherlands for 13 years, and really destroyed the country. We had a very good country. The Netherlands is a rich country, but unfortunately—maybe it’s the same situation as in the U.S.—it is deteriorating. People are without jobs. People have bills they cannot afford anymore. Especially the gas, the heating bills, and so on—normal things that people should have in a developed country.

And what about the weapons industry? You have Rheinmetall in Germany; it was a company for metal working. Now, it’s like all other companies that are built out to be weapons companies. In my opinion, it’s unbelievable what they are doing now, and people are really, I think, desperate. They want to go to the streets and demonstrate; you see this in Germany. But in the Netherlands, the civilians are sleeping a little bit; this is what I think. But I think they will wake up somehow. Because when they go ahead with this [war drive], then it will come down to the basic needs, and people hopefully will go to the streets and try to do something. Because what you see now, to conclude, is they want to go to war. And they say all the time we will go next year, or the year after. But the purpose of the elites in Europe is to go to war without the United States. It doesn’t matter anymore to them. They don’t have negotiations, they don’t have diplomacy, they have nothing anymore, only rhetoric, and that’s war. Like today on X, you see it again. It’s hopeless.

Sare: What are you referring to on X?

Van den Ende: The [NATO country foreign ministers] had a meeting in Brussels again, and what came out actually was, we support Ukraine, we stand by Ukraine. And this is the same propaganda that we hear every day. And they know Ukraine is losing. They know it, but they keep on going.

Sare: Yes. And I understand the American Secretary of State [Marco Rubio] was not present. What I find amazing is, do they really believe that they can carry out such a war without the United States joining them?

Van den Ende: I think they are, as I call them, so radicalized—they are like a sect. They believe in this, it’s like a mantra every day. Maybe they say it to themselves when they wake up, I don’t know, but you hear it. And it’s like when we had the Covid time [coronavirus pandemic], you know, they kept on going and you had the distance, and all these things. I think some of them know that it’s not possible to even start a war or win a war against Russia, but they have no alternative. They have been preaching this for three years, and the economy is very bad, the financial situation is very bad. It started right after Covid—when they stopped this, they started this rhetoric about going to war. Well, maybe the people will look through it and see that, “Oh, wow, these people have lied to us all these years—now for three years—and we could even go to war. What are they saying?” I guess this is what keeps them going. And up until now, they keep on going with this war.

The Truth About Donbas

Sare: Well, now I’m sorry, because I digressed. But please say what was happening in the Donbas when you got there in 2022.

Van den Ende: Okay. I went in with the Russian military one week after the start, at the beginning of March 2022. I went to several cities. For me, the worst part was Mariupol. I was there in April 2022, and the city was still under fire from the Ukrainians. We were walking there in the city center, and we could hear the bombs with the grenades and so on. There was fighting at the port still, and when I was in the city center, we saw all the destroyed houses, and a lot of people were still there, especially older people.

Sare: Let me ask you, because, of course, the Ukrainians blame all of this on the Russians. So, who destroyed Mariupol?

Van den Ende: I spoke to many civilians there, and they said it was Ukraine. And this was not only Mariupol, it was another city as well—Volnovakha was also destroyed. I spoke to the head teacher there from a school which was, of course, destroyed as well. Also, I spoke with the head of the hospital. They declared to me that it was the Ukrainians, because when the Ukrainians heard that the Russians were coming, then they destroyed the whole city. Well, at least the city center was destroyed. That’s what I saw in Mariupol, and Volnovakha. And of course, I was in Kherson. That is where the hydroelectric dam was, and that was destroyed also, afterwards. I saw it when it was still okay, was still working. It was protected by the Russian Army, but it didn’t help.

Sare: It doesn’t seem like a very good strategy if you’re trying to persuade people that they should be part of your country.

Van den Ende: No, of course not. Also, Lysychansk—many cities were partly destroyed, and it was the same story all over again. It was the Ukrainians who retreated, actually. So, before they retreated, maybe like the German tactics from the Second World War, they destroyed the city. This is what they did.

Sare: What I understand is that when Russia began the Special Military Operation, they did not send hundreds of thousands of troops. They were sending a message. And in fact, it seems to have been an effective message, because only three to four weeks after it began, there were talks in Türkiye between Ukraine and Russia, which could have ended the war at that point. Is that accurate?

Van den Ende: Yes, that’s accurate. Because I remember when I went in with the Russian Army, I was close to Crimea; that’s the point from where we started to go in. And it was not the whole Russian Army—that was clear; it was a fraction of the Russian Army that went in. And I think the Russians themselves expected that this is a message to Ukraine: If you go any further, then we are ready to go in more, or maybe with more troops. Then we had the peace negotiations in Türkiye in 2022. [Prime Minister] Boris Johnson from the UK and of course the other European leaders, clearly said to [Ukrainian President Volodymyr] Zelensky, “you don’t sign any peace negotiation, because we don’t want you to have peace with Russia.” It was not exactly like that, but this is actually what it came to. But Ukraine was not very happy; I heard that, too, from the minister of foreign affairs in Luhansk, because he was there at the negotiations, and he told me that, “Oh, the champagne was already there, it’s okay, we have peace, everything is settled.” But it was not like that.

Sare: It’s really so evil, because so many Ukrainians have died since then. The figures I’ve heard are 1.7 or 1.8 million Ukrainian soldiers. Is that accurate?

Van den Ende: Yes, I heard that, too. Of course, we don’t know the exact number of dead people, dead soldiers, but also civilians. But I think it comes close, because they are losing on the battlefield. It’s very terrible—you hear it’s many people a day. But it’s not only soldiers, it’s also civilians. I heard that in the beginning as well, that apartment blocks were bombed or hit with grenades, and people died there in the cellars trying to hide from the bombardments. So, yes, I think close to one million, it should be for sure.

Sare: Right. If you could remind everyone, what were Russia’s demands? What is their purpose in the Special Military Operation? Because one thing that’s been very striking, unlike the West, and even unlike President Trump, who says he wants to end the war, the Russians have been extremely consistent about their demands from the beginning of this, even to this point now. And I do think that if the Americans involved in these negotiations would actually stop and consider what the demands of Russia have been the entire time, we could make a bit more headway on this process.

Van den Ende: One thing is for sure, and I was there. There were democratic elections in the four republics; it was a referendum. And the people from these four republics of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson, about 90% said that we want to be part of Russia.

Sare: Okay. So, this is what they said: “You’re a propaganda agent.”

Van den Ende: I know, I know.

Sare: Everyone was going to be shot!

Van den Ende: Yeah, but I was there!

Sare: And it seems to me, if you’re getting bombed by the Ukrainian government, why would you want to continue to be part of Ukraine? I think people should consider that.

Van den Ende: And also, people should consider in the West that these four provinces are mainly inhabited—or were, because many people have now left, of course, because of the destruction—but these people were Russian-speaking people. They felt Russian. A lot of elderly people still felt for the Soviet Union, which was normal. But the first thing is they felt Russian. And the people said to me, all of them, but also younger people, “We don’t have any opportunity when we are part of Ukraine.” And also, I was visiting a lot of factories at that time, or cities, of course, which were not bombed. If you saw them, it’s like it was the 1980s there. The factories were still working. It was horrible, actually. How do people work there?

So, Ukraine got all this money from the European Union to renovate the roads, to improve infrastructure, and also the factories. And they didn’t do anything with the money. So, where did this money go? We don’t know. Maybe you know what we now found out, I don’t know. But I want to say that there were no opportunities as well in Ukraine, and also they felt Russian, so why not be Russian? This is what the people told me. And also, they didn’t want to be associated with the regime—what they called it in Kiev—because, according to them, it is right-wing extremists. And we know that from the coup in the Maidan in 2014, with the Azov Battalion, and so on. So, this was what the people said in the Donbas.

Nazis on Parade

Sare: Right, yes, exactly. I know The New York Times actually admitted in one article that when the AP photographers would take photos of the Ukrainian soldiers on the front, they would ask them to please roll their sleeves down in order to hide the Nazi tattoos that they have on their arms.

Van den Ende: Yes, I saw this. I was in the Azov steel plant one week after the liberation, and they had all these Azov Battalion members captured. They had to take off their shirts and you could see all their Nazi tattoos. So, that’s the evidence.

Sare: Right, exactly. So, what is your sense of the dynamic now? And also, if you want to say anything about some of the provocations, because it seems to me that throughout this period, particularly British intelligence, with the collusion of other NATO members, including, unfortunately, sometimes the United States, have been doing everything they can to provoke Russia to try and get Putin to overreact, to do something precipitous that would give them an excuse to carry out further military actions. And now we have some Italian guy in NATO [Admiral Giuseppe Cavo Dragone, chair of the NATO Military Committee] saying we should consider a preemptive nuclear strike on Russia. So, what is the dynamic that’s been going on here? And what about these provocations?

Van den Ende: Well, I think the government of President Putin, and President Putin himself, are a very pragmatic people, but also, they have these goals to liberate the Donbas, and they know who the enemy is. The enemy is particularly Europe. Before it was the United States—in some sense maybe it’s still also the U.S., because there are a lot of hawks, of course, also in Trump’s administration. So, Russia keeps calm, actually. And we can see all the drones coming here every night, it’s in all the regions, also sometimes in Moscow here, where I am. But people are continuing their normal way of life, going to work, school, and so on. So, the people are quiet, and also the government is not nervous, because they know they are winning in the Donbas. They know it, and the people are behind this government.

And this is what you need when you are at war, because we all know here in Russia that we are at war with the West. And also, we know the peace negotiations are going on, but a lot of people are also saying, “yes, but if the U.S. really wants to have a peace between Ukraine and Russia, then do not let Europe buy weapons from the U.S., because these weapons are going to Ukraine.” So, when you really want peace, you should say to Europe, “Don’t buy any weapons, because this is not helping to get peace.” But we know Trump likes deals in the U.S. But the people here are with the government, and the government is really handling it, in my opinion, very well with the people.

Sare: Yes, that’s another rumor that people try to spread, that “Putin is on his way out; he’s going to be overthrown; nobody trusts him.” What would you say to that?

Van den Ende: No, no, no. I think this is just in their imagination. It’s there from the past, when [Syrian President Bashar al-] Assad had to go. [Libyan President Muammar] Gadhafi had to go, and so on. This is what they want, but this time, they will not get it. I mean, they kicked out Assad in a coup, and all the other ones, you know them as well. But the people are behind the government—not only Putin, but behind the whole government. And this peace negotiation takes a long time, but Russia keeps its back straight and says, “these are our goals. We cannot speak with Europe anymore. But with the United States, you can say ‘we need this,’ or, ‘we have the 28-point plan,’ or ‘we have this plan,’ but these are our goals, and this is what we want to have.” And the Special Military Operation started for this, and this is what will be the end of the operation.

Russia’s Preconditions for Peace

Sare: Now, how close do you think that is? I know that [Trump’s special envoy Steve] Witkoff was there two days ago meeting with [Kremlin special envoy] Kirill Dmitriev and President Putin. It was five hours of talks. They said there were some advances. And then, of course, the press here said, “well, but Putin is so arrogant he wouldn’t compromise.” And I’m thinking that the Russians have been very clear from the beginning what their demands are, which are very reasonable, which are: You don’t ethnically cleanse the Russian speaking people or their language; Ukraine doesn’t have nuclear weapons; Ukraine does not join NATO. All of these things should be very obvious to Americans. We had a particular response when the Soviet Union put nuclear missiles in Cuba under [President John] Kennedy. It’s obvious that no one wants to have nuclear missiles on their border from a potentially hostile partner. But what is your sense about how this dynamic is going, and the various nuances? And what do you think is required?

Van den Ende: Well, I think real peace is not possible without Europe and, of course, Ukraine itself. I mean, it’s a good thing that there are renewed relations with the United States, because they were not there for the past three or four years. So that’s always bad, because two nuclear powers that don’t have any relations, canceling the START Treaty and so on, that’s not very good. So, I think this is a big advantage. And it also means that Russia, the government, or Putin, wants to communicate and wants to find a solution for what is going on in Ukraine right now.

But the big problem is Europe and Ukraine itself. And if Europe starts supporting Ukraine, I think then it will be finished very quickly. Because the Russian Army, which I said before, is advancing very quickly now. We have now Pokrovsk, the liberation, that’s what they call in the West. And if they keep on going, maybe Odessa, we don’t know. But I see that in the future. But if there are negotiations, I think they can speak about anything. But now the West, and also the U.S., wants an armistice there, and this is not going to happen, because Russia will say—and this is what they are right about—“look, if we do that, Europe is going to rearm, or maybe the U.S. is going to rearm the Ukrainian army.” And that’s very bad. And that’s the problem of NATO, of course, which we still have surrounding Russia.

Sare: Yes, that’s exactly the case. Well, I think the time has gone very fast, and we should be wrapping up soon. But Putin has called for a new security architecture, as you are saying. It has to include all of Europe. This is very much like what Helga Zepp-LaRouche at the Schiller Institute has been saying; we need an entirely new paradigm of relations. [Chinese President] Xi Jinping calls it “win-win.” We can abandon this crazy imperial model, where somebody always has to be the global hegemon, and rather have an equal participation of sovereign nation states who respect each other. Do you think that’s pie in the sky?

Van den Ende: Well, I think we are in the beginning. I mean, the BRICS was the beginning. And a lot of countries are joining BRICS. And, of course, a multipolar world would be very good, because there’s no world hegemony from the United States or Europe; this is, I think, in the past. And this is exactly what Europe is struggling with, because they were the power, together with the U.S. But the United States, I think, said goodbye a little bit to that. But Europe is not superior, even though they think they are. They had all these colonies—especially Britain—everywhere. So, this is the whole problem. And when we have normal, good politicians who understand that their world is not their world anymore, that it’s a different world, a multipolar world, then maybe we can see our way towards peace, or a good world, a better world. But I think it’s a long way off at the moment. I hope not, but I think so.

Sare: A long way. But I think we’re moving there. I would like to thank you very much. Is there anything that I didn’t ask you or anything you want to say before we conclude?

Van den Ende: No, I think you tackled all the topics, and once again, let’s hope Europe will come to its senses, and also that the United States will stop supplying weapons to Europe so that they can send them to Ukraine. That’s actually the whole point; then the war will be finished.

Sare: I agree very much. Well, thank you so much, and I hope we talk again soon.